The Hidden Dangers of Artificial Turf | Improvement Warrior Podcast Episode 61
13 pillars of health
September 14, 2024
The Hidden Dangers of Artificial Turf: What Every Parent and Athlete Needs to Know | Improvement Warrior Podcast Episode 61
This podcast and blog post come from another podcast that I was unaware of and am hoping to bring awareness to in regards to the toxic aspects of artificial turf and PFAS. As a former gym owner I once I moved into my studio in 2011 it was shortly thereafter that I purchased my artififical turf to put in the studio. Many hours spent in that gym for me and my clients and after closing the gym I moved some of the turf into my home garage and garage gym. I am currently in the process of throwing it out permanently.
Virginia Tech’s Indoor athletic training complex for football complete with Artificial Turf
This podcast comes from Green Street with Patti and Doug Wood and this one is called Toxic Turf with Barbara Laker and David Gambacorta. The original post can be found here
Highlights of today’s podcast:
Introduction to Artificial Turf: Booming popularity in sports fields and playgrounds, despite hidden health concerns.
Understanding PFAS: Man-made chemicals used since the 1940s, present in many household products, now found in alarming levels in the environment and human bodies.
Health Risks: PFAS linked to cancers, liver damage, fertility issues, and more, with increased risk for athletes due to frequent exposure.
Environmental Impact: PFAS can contaminate soil and water, persisting in the environment for decades.
Personal Stories: Real-life examples of health issues from PFAS exposure on artificial turf.
Advocacy and Action: Importance of pushing for policies to limit PFAS, researching safer materials, and engaging with authorities for stricter regulations.
Staying Informed: Encouraging continuous education through newsletters, environmental updates, and community involvement.
Call to Action: Urging readers to advocate for safer alternatives and regulations to protect future generations.
LISTEN to the Podcast HERE
WATCH The Podcast HERE
Resources from this podcast are underneath the blog post below.
Artificial turf has become increasingly popular in sports fields, playgrounds, and home lawns. However, beneath its apparent convenience lies a serious health concern: per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances (PFAS). These chemicals, often referred to as “forever chemicals,” pose significant risks to both athletes and the general population. This blog delves into the dangers associated with PFAS in artificial turf and provides essential information every parent and athlete should know.
What Are PFAS?
PFAS are a group of man-made chemicals that have been used in various industries around the globe since the 1940s. Known for their resistance to water, oil, and heat, they are commonly found in household products like non-stick cookware, water-repellent clothing, stain-resistant fabrics, and even in fire-fighting foams. Unfortunately, these chemicals are now found in the environment and human bodies at alarming levels due to their ability to persist and accumulate over time. When used in artificial turf, PFAS can pose serious health risks to those who come into contact with the turf regularly.
PFAS exposure has been linked to numerous health issues. These include various cancers, liver damage, decreased fertility, increased cholesterol levels, and weakened immune systems. For athletes constantly playing on artificial turf fields, the risk is even higher. The physical activity on the turf can lead to more dust inhalation and direct skin contact, increasing the likelihood of PFAS absorption. Parents should also be concerned about their children’s exposure, as developing bodies are more susceptible to the adverse effects of these chemicals.
The dangers of PFAS aren’t limited to human health. These chemicals can leach from artificial turf into the surrounding environment, polluting soil and groundwater. PFAS are incredibly persistent in the environment, meaning they can remain for years, if not decades, causing long-term exposure risks to wildlife and humans alike. The manufacturing and disposal of artificial turf containing PFAS contribute further to environmental contamination.
Personal stories highlight the real-world impacts of PFAS exposure. For instance, one athlete who frequently played on artificial turf reported unexplained health issues, only to later discover elevated levels of PFAS in their bloodstream. Similarly, a parent concerned about a rash on their child’s skin discovered that the artificial turf at the local playground was the source of the PFAS exposure. These anecdotes underscore the importance of awareness and vigilance regarding artificial turf surfaces.
Understanding the dangers of PFAS in artificial turf is just the beginning. Parents, athletes, and community members should advocate for policies that limit or ban the use of PFAS in artificial turf. Research alternative, safer materials for sports fields and playgrounds. Engage with local authorities and sports organizations to push for more stringent regulations and testing of turf materials. Awareness campaigns can be instrumental in educating the public about these hidden dangers, paving the way for a healthier future for our children and athletes.
Staying informed is crucial for personal and community safety. Parents and athletes should regularly consult reputable sources of information, engage in conversations about the risks of PFAS, and participate in community efforts to reduce exposure. Subscribing to newsletters from health organizations, following updates from environmental groups, and attending local meetings on public health issues can all contribute to staying ahead of the risks associated with artificial turf.
The potential health risks posed by PFAS in artificial turf are significant and deserve greater attention from parents, athletes, and the broader community. By staying informed, pushing for safer alternatives, and advocating for stricter regulations, we can protect ourselves and future generations from the hidden dangers lurking beneath the surface. Let’s take action today to ensure a healthier tomorrow for everyone who enjoys sports and outdoor activities.
Hey, what’s up Improvement Warrior, Jason Yun back with you again. Welcome to Improvement Warrior podcast. This is episode number 61, so this podcast is not mine, it is, I don’t even know how I got on their email list, but it is Green Street with Patti and Doug Wood and this one is called Toxic Turf with Barbara Laker and David Gambacorta, so, and I listened to it because I, obviously it caught my eye because I have artificial turf set up in my garage and that artificial turf was in my gym, we moved in the gym probably 2011 and I probably got it very, very soon after, yeah, and I had it in there for, until 2020 and then I sold some of it and then I brought some of it here into my garage gym, but as soon as I heard this podcast, I started, I took it out and some of it has been thrown away. I tried to do a bulk pick up with the garbage people, but they came today and wouldn’t pick it up because they wanted it cut into pieces and into smaller pieces and tied up and it’s like if I, I mean if it’s in smaller pieces, I’m just going to throw it away, I mean there’s no point, so, so it’s still, still in my garage, I still got to throw some pieces of it away, but the podcast is very interesting, so it’s basically going over Veterans Stadium and the Philadelphia Phillies and how they played in there and I think there was six total players that have been diagnosed with, I think it was glioblastoma, which is the brain cancer. No Philadelphia Eagles have, but they’re on the, they were on the, they were on the turf a lot less than obviously the baseball players, so there’s 81 games plus preseason and plus postseason, all that stuff, so if you are, I mean, it was in my gym all this time and I mean I was in there teaching classes, the big thing is they have PAFSs, PFASs, which are known as the forever chemicals, so if I do end up with cancer, then you, you and I know why, so this stuff is, it’s very, very bad, so if you have a child working out on it, because it is very popular in fitness facilities, especially sports, sport training facilities, which I was and yeah, it was one of the reasons I, I got it in the first place, thought I was just, I was just following the trend without asking questions and that’s how we get in trouble, is following, following the trends, wearing sunglasses, doing the sunscreen, doing this diet, that diet, all that stuff without questioning it, so it’s important we question everything, everything, everything. So again, it’s not my podcast, I’m not trying to copyright infringe, so if I do need to take it down, please let me know, Green Street, but you can get on Green Street’s newsletter, they, I don’t know how I got on there, but this one caught my eye, I usually just delete the email, but it’s a good email, or a good podcast, I think it’s 29 minutes, but what’s going on in the world of Improvement Warrior, I’ve got a new transformation challenge coming up, the Fall into Winter Circadian Rhythm, or Circadian Health Transformation, supposedly it’s supposed to start on September the 24th, but I am leaving on a cruise on the 27th, I’m not sure if I’m going to have internet, so it might be pushed back to the second week of October, but you can check it out, I’ll update the website based on what I learned in terms of internet on the cruise, so it’s going down to the Virgin Islands, the Caribbean Islands, St. John, St. Thomas, all that stuff. So get my sunshine right before I get my vitamin D checked, very awesome, you can check out the challenge at improvementwarriorfitness.com, slash Fall, Winter, and of course we’re always looking for reviews, Apple and Spotify are the big ones, so we can get this podcast and help other people change their lives, but if you do, again, if you do know anybody working out on artificial turf, please send this podcast to them, and especially if the artificial turf is outside, because when the heat hits the PFASs and these forever chemicals, it makes them much, much worse, and that was why the Philadelphia Phillies were a lot more affected than the Eagles. So have a listen, so, and yeah, just have a listen, and please share it, and I’ll talk to you later. And again, if you have any questions or need individual coaching, you can set up a discovery call with me, improvementwarriorfitness.com, slash discovery call, and of course if you are new here, please get on the newsletter, we obviously talk about different things other than nutrition and diet, nutrition, diet, and exercise, but we still talk about that stuff in a circadian way, so get on the newsletter, improvementwarriorfitness.com, slash NL, that is where I will send every single thing that you need to know about. And here we go, enjoy this podcast from Green Street Toxic Turf with Barbara Laker and David Gambacorta. Stay strong, stay positive, be the improvement warrior. This is Green Street with Patty and Doug Wood, the environmental health show and podcast keeping you up to date on what in the world is happening and what you need to know to protect yourself and your family in this increasingly toxic world. Welcome back. Artificial turf fields are common at college and professional sports stadiums and thousands of municipal and high school fields across the country, but we’re learning that these giant plastic fields come with a heavy price tag nobody wants to pay. A team of reporters from Philadelphia is breaking this story wide open, and everyone from the NFL to local soccer clubs is taking notice. That story is coming up on Green Street, but first, some of the news of the week. What do you got, Patty? I couldn’t leave this one alone. This is about ultra-processed foods. We’re not just talking about food here, but we’re talking about all the chemicals that are involved in manufacturing ultra-processed foods. And they’re worried about them being as addictive as cigarettes, and for good reason. Highly processed foods are addictive for some people because they trigger the cravings, the compulsive consumption and the other traits associated with tobacco or alcohol substance use disorders. In fact, up to 20% of adults and 15% of kids and adolescents have signs of addiction to ultra-processed foods. Ultra-processed foods are like what? Well, you know, these are foods that are manufactured inside industrial factories. That should be a red flag right there. These are foods that are manufactured inside industrial factories, and they contain ingredients that are altered and combined in ways that amp up their fat, their sugar, their salt, but they also include multiple other flavor and sensory enhancements, which are chemicals, to make them so enticing that people can’t resist them. Typical ultra-processed foods are breakfast cereals, packaged snacks, fast foods, mass-produced breads and desserts, reconstituted fish and meat like sausages and hot dogs and fish sticks, and then you get into the ice cream and the candy world and soft drinks. It’s basically all the stuff that you find in the middle aisles of grocery stores. I was just going to say, this is the American diet. This is what everybody’s eating. Yeah, but it is estimated, this is what really got me, it’s estimated that close to 60% of the calories consumed in the United States are from these foods. 60%, more than half of what people eat are these highly ultra-processed foods. It’s unbelievable. It’s really easier to understand this when you know who owns these companies. Okay. Are you ready for this? This is going to be bad news. Food companies learn from cigarettes, especially since tobacco giant Philip Morris acquired two food companies in the late 80s to form Kraft General Foods, which is now called Kraft Heinz, right, because those are another fast food. Expertise and resources were transferred to the food companies from Philip Morris. In other words, how to addict people to stuff. How to addict people. Wow. Yep. That’s who’s making 60% of the food that Americans eat. That’s correct. That’s correct. Wow. So, you know, clear nutritional information does not exist on these products, okay? They should have mandatory packaging warning labels like those we wear for cigarettes. Nobody’s going to read those labels. No, I’m not. You’ve seen those labels where it’s so many scientific terms that you can’t figure out what. In fact, I always wanted to do this. I always wanted to have a quiz, you know, on the show. I would read the ingredients. And say, what is this? And we’d say, people, yeah, what is this? What is this? Can you guess what the… Of course, you couldn’t guess what it was. I think I had the ingredient list for Doritos, and there was absolutely nothing in there that… Oh, I did… Remember this? But I did that. I did these nutrition programs at the schools, remember? Yeah. And I had some metal, and I had some dry ice in it, and there was all kind of smoke coming out of it, you know? And I was stirring away, and I was reading a recipe, and I was reading it out loud, and I was reading, okay, a little bit of this chemical and this chemical, and I had all these extra little bottles and jars I was putting in, and I was stirring it around and stirring it around, and then I said, okay, I think it’s done. And I reached into the pot, and I pulled out a bag of Doritos. It was so much fun. Oh, I bet the kids loved it. And they couldn’t believe what I had read on the ingredient list, that those were the things that they were actually eating when they eat a Dorito. Unbelievable. Yeah, I know. So did the industry have some response to this news? Yes. So the industry’s response to this, and this is a quote, demonizing shelf-ready foods could limit access to and cause avoidance of nutritious foods, it states, empowering consumers with clear nutritional information and preserving consumer choice so they can make the right decisions for their personal health goals should be the priority in public health guidance. The group also notes the term ultra-process doesn’t have a clear definition and could lead to consumer confusion. Yeah, I know. They hate that term. What is that term they use? Shelf-ready? Yes. Demonizing shelf-ready foods. Shelf-ready foods. That’s right. In other words, they’re ready to go, ready to eat, right out of the package. Day or night. Oh, boy. Okay. Well, changing gears here for a minute, if you still have a landline phone, listen up, because last week AT&T applied for a waiver that would allow it to stop servicing traditional landlines in California and soon in a state near you. Both AT&T and Verizon have said they want to move all their customers over to newer infrastructure within the next few years, replacing older copper wire-based telephone system lines, also known, you’re going to love this, also known as plain old telephone service or POTS, that’s the acronym, they want to replace them with more advanced technology that doesn’t work with landlines. Consumers are going to have to decide whether to give up their landlines or potentially face higher costs because of complex, expensive workarounds from the phone companies. The alternatives might not be as reliable as old-fashioned landlines either, and the process of switching out the old equipment for the new is going to be a massive undertaking. An AT&T spokesman said, quote, we are focused on enhancing our network with more advanced higher-speed technologies like fiber and wireless, which consumers are demanding, unquote. And he added that they’re not actually canceling landline service in California, but apparently they’re just going to make it so expensive that everybody will have no choice except to move over. Use a cell phone. Anyone with an analog fax machine, including hospitals and clinics and doctor’s offices, all those lines are going to have to be replaced, which is going to cost somewhere between $200 and $400 to replace your… And there are places that want really secure lines, and they all use landlines. They sure do. Yeah. So what are you going to tell them? Too bad? Pony up, baby. Yeah, too bad. Yeah, too bad is exactly what they’re going to say. So this is going to be a real problem in rural areas and disaster-prone areas where copper-based landline service is really critical. About 100 million landlines exist right now between businesses and residential homes. In California? No. Nationwide? Nationwide. Okay. 100 million. So this seems like not the best idea to me. I know it might reduce costs for the telecoms, but copper phone lines don’t fail in storms. That’s right. You know? When Hurricane Sandy hit in New York City, people who were living on the 34th or 37th floors could only call 911 and give them information about elevators not being functional and so on and so on with a landline. That’s right. Their cell phones didn’t work. That’s right. And if you have an internet phone, the internet goes down or the power goes out, you have no phone. Phone doesn’t work. But that’s not the case with POTS, or Plain Old Telephone Service. I love that acronym. I’m not an acronym fan, but I love POTS. It’s great. Anyway. All right. We’re going to be talking about artificial turf in a minute. Hang on. We’ll be right back. It’s a recurring theme in modern society. A new product or service is developed, and before science has a chance to fully investigate all of the pros and cons, marketing plans are created and implemented, and the product or service starts to make money. In some cases, hundreds of millions of dollars. And eventually, science comes along, and it becomes evident that the new product or service has some serious, sometimes even fatal, flaws. At that point, lawyers and lobbyists get busy defending the new product or service. Government regulations are opposed. Marketing budgets are increased to counter bad press. Compliant scientists are hired to do studies that cast doubt on any claims of harm. They act as if a legitimate debate exists, so that people of good faith can be comfortable waiting for more science before making any decisions. That was true with asbestos, true with hormone replacement therapy, true with tobacco, and many others too numerous to mention. In every case, commerce got out ahead of science, and the result was serious harm to the public. There’s not a lot of scientific debate anymore over whether or not artificial turf fields are safe. While the artificial turf industry has tried to paint this as a legitimate debate where the science isn’t clear, that’s just spin. The fact is, we know that the chemicals used to manufacture these giant plastic fields are harmful to humans. David Gambacorda and Barbara Laker are reporters for the Philadelphia Inquirer newspaper. They’ve been writing about the chemicals in synthetic turf ever since they learned about the six members of the Philadelphia Phillies baseball team who all died of glioblastoma, an aggressive brain cancer. In 2022, David West, a former pitcher for the Philadelphia Phillies that died of glioblastoma, and he at that time became the sixth former member of the Phillies to have died of brain cancer. And that piqued Barbara’s interest in mine, and we wondered if there could potentially be a connection between these illnesses, because glioblastoma is such a rare form of cancer. And our attention turned to where the Phillies had played from 1971 to 2003, and that was Veterans Stadium. The stadium was demolished in 2004, so we couldn’t quite dig it up, but Barbara had started consulting with some scientific experts, and they suggested that we consider looking at the turf. Fortunately, we were able to find actual pieces of the Vets’ turf on eBay. Really? Yeah. The Phillies had, in 1982, given away pieces of their turf, the turf that had actually been on the field when they won the World Series in 1980. And luckily for us, people had kept these little squares of turf in its original plastic, you know, fully sealed for the better part of four decades, and we were able to get those samples tested by two different labs. Wow. Without having to do any research, you could tell just from that that they are called the forever chemicals, right? Yeah. Fresh and ready for investigation. So you sent them off to the lab. What came back? Well, so the first lab we took them to, an expert told me to go to Eurofins Lab in Lancaster, which is like a primo lab for testing PFAS, and she told me to ask for them to test it for 70 different PFAS, because as you guys probably know, there’s like thousands upon thousands, like 12,000 different kinds of PFAS, and only two really have been studied extensively, or not even really extensively, but studied at all. So we asked for the testing of 70 different PFAS, and at that lab, it came back with 16 different PFAS, including one of the ones that they’ve studied as being a health hazard. And then a couple months later, I had been talking to Graham Peasley, an expert at Notre Dame University, and he’s studied PFAS for like years upon years, and has a lab where he tests turf from across the country, those old and new turf. And he actually offered to, if we got more samples, so David got more samples of the turf, and we mailed those samples to Graham Peasley at Notre Dame, and he tested it too, not just for 70, but he also found several PFAS in the samples that we gave him. And this was, what’s amazing is this turf was 40 years old and older. And so PFAS is still there. 40 years later, it kind of proves that there’s a reason why they’re called forever chemicals. Yeah. Wow. Fascinating. Okay, so how much science did you find that linked the common types of PFAS that were found and glioblastomas? I mean, it’s a relatively rare type of brain cancer, but incredibly serious and incredibly dangerous type of, I mean, all brain cancers are serious, but this is a particularly fast-growing and… Deadly. Deadly, exactly. We had been in conversation for months with the Phillies leading up to the publication of the first story, which we had called Field of Dread. We tried to be really transparent with our reporting, and the fact that we had not solved this in so many words, it wasn’t like we had had sort of an airtight conclusion that we came to. It was more, you know, we’d found these chemicals and that certainly seemed to suggest a possible link. And right before we had published the story, the Phillies sent us statements, some of which were from a professor at Duke, and he was adamant that there was no way that PFAS could have caused glioblastoma, that it couldn’t cross the blood-brain barrier. And, you know, sort of seemingly said to pose this as a possible theory, you know, was wrong. And Barbara, you know, reached out to more experts and did quite a bit of 11th-hour digging and found, I think it was three different studies. Was it two from China and one from Italy, Barbara? Yeah, we had two from… They were all outside the U.S., but they were different studies and they were very well-regarded. And these studies showed that not only PFAS can be found in the brain, so that, like, throughout the whole theory that it can’t cross the brain barrier, but also one study found that looked at glioblastoma tumors, that PFAS was actually found in the tumors. Since we published that story, there have been more studies that link glioblastoma to, or that raise the possibility that glioblastoma can be linked to toxins, including PFAS. We’re not saying that it caused it. We’re not saying anything like that. We’re saying that PFAS clearly causes a number of health issues. It’s been linked to prostate cancer, kidney cancer, like two or three cancers. But each year, each month, actually, health problems are linked to PFAS. And because of that, like, there’s a question and people are saying, look, we need to study this more, especially when it comes to TIRF and PFAS in the TIRF. As you said, like, the temperatures get really, really hot on the TIRF. We had… David and I went to archives at both Temple University and City Archives, and it showed that during the time the Phillies players played at the Vets, that the temperature of the TIRF could get up to, like, 160 degrees. And experts told us that when you have a chemical like that and you heat it up, it becomes more toxic. It vaporizes and becomes more toxic. So, theoretically, that these players and anyone playing on TIRF can inhale it. They know it can be absorbed through the skin. And everyone is crying out saying, look, we need more studies on this to know exactly, is there a link? And if so, how strong is it? And what action should be taken as a result if it does show that there’s a stronger link than what some people suspect? You know, it obviously gave us pause, especially right before we were going to publish that people, you know, professors at Duke University were saying that it cannot cross the brain barrier. And now we know that at least some studies show that it definitely can. Right. So, this is also interesting. And then, of course, there’s the issue of how much exposure is too much? How much? I mean, every American is exposed to PFAS somewhere in their lives, whether it’s in their water supply and they’re showering in it and drinking it. You know, who knows what else uses they have. I mean, some people have gardens and they water their gardens with PFAS contaminated water. So, it’s in their food supply. And, of course, PFAS is in all food supplies now because it’s found in fertilizers and it’s just really kind of ubiquitous in packaging and so many different things. It’s one of the most useful chemicals for so many different industries. It’s amazing the volume of PFAS that is produced and used by industry that people are exposed to on a daily basis. David and I also did a story about the firefighters and the firefighters who are wearing turnout gear that has PFAS in it. And we know from looking at, like, statistics that firefighters have a higher rate of cancer than the general population. Now, we do know that, obviously, when they go into fires, they’re exposed to other chemicals, possible chemicals, too. And smoke and so many. They’re exposed to other carcinogens. But we do know that the turnout gear contains PFAS and, obviously, when they’re wearing the turnout gear and they’re fighting fires, they’re exposed to a real high level of heat. So, you’re right. I mean, PFAS is everywhere and there’s studies going on across the country now that are trying to determine, like, which is worse? If you inhale it? If you are a kid and you play on turf and you’re a goalie and you fall down and you get scrapes on your body? Is it the crumb rubber that’s more dangerous or just as dangerous? Is it the PFAS? Like, what is it? Like you said, how much, like, how dangerous is it? And how often do you have to be playing on that turf? The Eagles, of course, played in Veterans Stadium as well. Did you look at the Eagles and look at their medical conditions at all? Yeah, that’s one of the first questions, I think, that we got asked with this. And it’s really not an apples-to-apples comparison. The Eagles only have eight home games a year. You know, and maybe for that period, the 80s and 90s, one or two preseason games and occasionally a playoff game. You know, in the Phillies, of course, they’re there 81 home games. They’re there for hours before the game for batting practice and field practice. And, you know, more importantly, they’re there in the dog days of summer. You know, when the heat is really focused. Larry Boa, who had been a shortstop for the Phillies in the 70s and later a coach, I remember watching somebody fry an egg on AstroTurf for a day game in the 1970s. So the exposure for the Phillies is just so much higher. You know, the guys that did die of glioblastoma. Darren Dalton had been on the team for a very long time. John Vukovic had been a player and a coach for years. So their exposure rate was just so much higher than it would be for an Eagle who had been on the team for five years. We did look into that and didn’t come back with anything. But I think the other thing that we were struck by is just that this is not an issue that really had been extensively studied. Nobody was attempting in the 80s and 90s to determine whether or not there were some risks at play that were worth monitoring over the years ahead. So, you know, right now what’s emerging is more anecdotal. But I think we’re going to be learning a lot in the next couple of years as studies sort of intensify and more attention is being drawn to this issue. Because the chemical companies knew that PFAS was being used, obviously, in the turf for decades. But all the experts that David and I talked to told us that outside the chemical companies or the turf companies, nobody else knew was aware that PFAS was actually in the turf until 2019. So decades went, like years and years went by where we weren’t even aware. We didn’t know that PFAS was in it. And in fact, when David and I started working on this series and I first learned of the term PFAS, I thought, I’d never heard of PFAS. And I’m like, what? How do you say that? What is it? What’s the full name? And then, of course, we learned a lot more about it. And it was kind of amazing to me that the chemical companies knew about this and knew the dangers of PFAS for a long, long time and didn’t tell anyone that it was it’s not listed as an ingredient because it’s used in the manufacturing part. And it’s not like you buy a Teflon pan and it says one of the ingredients is PFAS. So I think that’s one reason why the studies haven’t been all completed yet because we didn’t even know PFAS was in all these things for years and years. So let me just ask you a question. With all of the research that you did, you have determined, A, that PFAS is actually in the carpet and the blades, the plastic blades. Because as you said, when they go through the manufacturing process, they add PFAS so that it doesn’t stick, right? It would stick in the extruders and in the molds and so on. But is it also in the crumb rubber? Some people have told me that it might be, that it might be on the top layer of the crumb where the actual backing of the turf meets the base. And we know that they use PFAS to make the blades stand up. They look pretty with PFAS. They stand up, they separate so it’s supposed to look nicer. But I’m talking about the crumb rubber, the infill material, the actual tires. Are tires made using PFAS as well? I haven’t heard that. They are using what, I don’t, I forget the long name of it, but it’s called P-A-H. H’s? Polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons. Right. Oh, very good. I was just going to say that, I swear. I mean, we’ve got all these things on the tip of our tongues. I can say that 10 times real fast. So we know the crumb rubber has that and we know the crumb rubber has lead and all these other, you know, chemicals that are, that they know are carcinogen. So everyone who plays on it is kind of getting like hit from both sides because the crumb rubber contains carcinogens and PFAS could be carcinogenic. So you’re getting it every which way. And so I think that’s another reason why it’s hard to determine like if there is a higher rate of people who play on turf and get cancer, what’s causing it? Is it the crumb rubber? Is it the PFAS? Is it both? How do you determine that? Right. I know that that soccer coach out at the University of Washington, Amy Griffin, has been tracking soccer players although she’s kind of stopped doing that now because it’s not an official, you know, database. But since you did this, are other teams coming forward and saying, well, we also have noticed a higher incidence of certain types of cancers. I mean, other occupations are probably looking at what you were writing about and saying, hey, we have that same problem too. Have you heard anything about that, David? Yeah. You know, one thing that came up in the fall of 2023 was the NFL Players Union. They have for years been collecting data on player injury rates on artificial turf versus natural grass and have really tried to campaign on that aspect of players getting hurt more when they’re playing on turf. But for the first time now, they are expressing concern about PFAS exposure and the potential that may be leading to illnesses among football players. And I think you made a really interesting point about the testicular cancer because we did kind of limit ourselves with that first story on glioblastoma. I think if we sort of broaden the lens to a lot of other cancers and there’s some official effort made to survey other teams and other organizations, I feel pretty certain that we’d be talking about more than a handful of cases. And I think that’s really what’s been missing to this point is on an official level, whether it’s Major League Baseball or the NFL, someone wanting to really dig in to this issue and determine whether there’s a there there. And just in talking with former NFL players in the fall, their sense was that this was not something that the NFL would really want to be digging into. One ex-Eagle that I had talked to said, you know, the league is still contending with a lot of fallout from the concussion litigation and all of the concerns about the health impact of those injuries. Why would they want to open another can of worms and have another health issue to be talking about? So yeah, I think as time goes on, you’re right that there will be more organizations wanting to look into this. Maybe we’re a little bit of a canary in the coal mine in a sense. The thing that I was struck by in the NFL, I think their revenue is somewhere around $12 billion a year. Stadiums have evolved so much in the last 30 years from cookie cutter municipal stadiums that really were not always of the best quality to now. Stadiums themselves cost a billion dollars to construct. So seemingly there would be a way to find the money to have natural grass in all the stadiums if there was a will to do that. Barbara Laker and David Gambacorda, investigative reporters for the Philadelphia Inquirer, talking about what they’ve learned and what every parent of a young athlete should know about artificial turf fields. That’s going to do it for this week’s edition of Green Street. Special thanks to our guests this week, investigative reporters Barbara Laker and David Gambacorda of the Philadelphia Inquirer. I’m Doug Wood. Patty and I will be back next week with another edition of the show. Thanks for listening. There is no tomorrow. I will say it again and again. 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